Ep 4: The power of a supportive team in paediatric occupational therapy

Michael Dermansky

Hi everyone, and welcome to the show that explores allied health business owners and managers. What’s important about being in the health allied health business today. My name is Michael Dermansky. I’m the senior physiotherapist and the representative of MD health. And I’ve got a special guest today, Dave Jereb. Welcome to the show today.

Dave Jereb

Thanks Michael, good to see you, mate.

Michael Dermansky

Great. So you’re a, you’re a pediatric OT. Uh, we’ve been speaking for about almost 12 months now as well, but your business and my business, but I thought it’s a fantastic business model and a very interesting space that you’re in, but let’s start a little bit about you and tell me a little bit yourself about your career, how you started as an OT and, um, and why you got into the field in the first place.

Dave Jereb

Sure. Yeah. Look, I think I come from a family of carers, the family of people who have been involved in teaching education, caring professions. We’ve got teachers and principals and librarians. We’ve got social workers and a whole lot of us did disability support work and a few OTs. And so it was almost like a rite of passage in my family that all the cousins went and worked at Barnardo’s Australia in their holiday programs. So we worked with kids with disabilities and foster kids. And that was probably where I found my, my love of working with kids. And I can remember one kid in particular, that is sort of a story that comes to mind. Can I tell you about this kid?

Michael Dermansky

Absolutely good for it.

Dave Jereb

Yeah, so this, this guy was my first autistic kid I’d ever met. And I had no idea I was 14 at the time, I wasn’t I couldn’t even work. So I was volunteering, actually to wind the story back even earlier.

My mum paid me $20 to volunteer for the day. And so I always say, I don’t know if that counts as volunteering, but it was below minimum wage. Uh, so I went and volunteered for the day and I really loved it. I had a lot of fun with all the kids, but there was this one kid who was just out on the outdoor area, which was just a big, um, concrete area between two demountables. So there were the air conditioned demountables and then a basketball court basically between them. And he just would rock his way around the perimeter and wouldn’t interact with anyone and people just let him have his own space. And I, I was really curious about this guy and I’d not seen this before. He didn’t bug anyone, but he certainly didn’t want to be inside. Later on, I’d see that, you know, it was really hard for him. If we had a rainy day and they didn’t want him outside, he’d cover his ears and he’d pace inside, but with his ears covered. But, but the first day I was there or the first week I was there, cause I ended up going back. I loved it so much, I volunteered a lot.

I went up to him and I handed him a basketball, and he’d sort of been in his own world and he sort of paused for a second as if he was about to refer to me. And then he just dropped it and walked off. And I thought, that’s weird. And so I picked it up and I handed it to him again. And I actually got a look out of him this time, like, are you crazy, mate? And he sort of looked at me a bit sideways and then he threw the ball to the side. And I’m like, I’m going to figure you out. And so I went and got it again. And a third time I passed it to him, he gave me the same look. And this time when he threw it to the side, I was ready, like a goalkeeper and I reached out and I grabbed it and I had it back in his hands before I even knew what happened. And I got a giggle, right? I got that slight smirk in his corner of his lip. I’d hooked him. And you know, maybe we played for three minutes before he wandered off. But that was when it tapped into me that, yeah, I wanted to work with kids.

Yeah, I wanted it to include connection. I didn’t know all this, you know, connection. But that’s really that I can look back now and say I was always going to be engaging, interacting, connecting, tapping into these kids because I just, I loved it. So that’s that. And then my sister actually was an OT. She was 11 years older than me and she became a mature age student, became an OT. So she ended up being an OT about five years ahead of me, five or six years ahead of me. And I first saw her work in Florida in the school system. And I was like, this is great. I was doing disability support work from 14 onwards.

But to just have one hour where you could just get really focused in and really make an impact was cool. Uh, and then it becomes a love story actually. So I studied OT and I went and did my third year placement in Madison, Wisconsin, which was the clinic where my sister was at that time. She wasn’t my supervisor, had a different supervisor, but that’s where I met Kathy. Kathy was there working as an OT assistant. She later became an OT and we hit it off.

I sometimes tease her and I say to people, I was young, I was vulnerable. And, uh, but no, we were very much both consensual, but it was, it was great. It was, we really hit it off. And so then we had this international relationship and she lived here a little bit there, we did this sort of country tag for about a year and a half before I moved to Chicago, worked for a great practice for about five years. And then we came back and set up move about.

Michael Dermansky

Well, let’s talk about two things. I mean, firstly, I mean, you said some very interesting things there. You said, you know, um, you wanted to make an impact as well. And I think that’s the resonates with a lot of people in the health, health space or the health space. Full stop is that why are we going to this space? And it’s because you want to make an impact. We’re gonna make a difference in people’s lives. We’ve got a caring profession. We were do something that actually makes a difference. Um, and you sort of naturally talked about that. You did this job because you want to make an impact.

Does that still resonate? I mean, we’ve got a few other things to go through, but does that still resonate with you today?

Dave Jereb

100% I think it’s the most important and I know there’s a things like burnout are really commonly spoken about in allied health and I actually think the biggest thing for me people talk about compassion fatigue and workloads and all this sort of stuff. And I actually think that they don’t compare to being somewhere where you don’t feel like you’re having an impact to being somewhere where the vision and the values you’re not in sync with them that’s going to deplete you more than anything else so.

At Move About, we’re all about impact. You know, our organizing principle is we support the people who support the kids. And that’s something that stemmed from, it really is the philosophy I had in the clinic I worked in Chicago that we brought to Sydney. And our key values are we’re in it to make a difference, we’re always learning, we’re connection driven and we’re playful. But we are in it to make a difference. And if we’re not making a difference, nobody wants to be in it. I’ve never had an interview where I said, well, why did you get into this? that I haven’t heard the person say, I wanna make a difference in the lives of families. I wanna make a difference in the lives of kids. Every single interview, that’s why we get into it. There’s a lot easier ways to make a buck than being an allied health professional. And so I think impact is absolutely the most important.

Michael Dermansky

Yeah, it’s interesting because we literally had the same conversation with our senior staff yesterday. We had our branch manager meeting reviewed what we’re going to be doing this year and coming back to the philosophy of what we do, what we do is the biggest thing is we make an impact on his lives. And that’s, that’s why we, you know, we step out every day and, and see people as well, because we want to make an impact on their lives. Otherwise, if we’re not heading that direction, I mean, why, why are we doing a tough job?

Dave

Makes me think of the Victor Frankl quote, he who has a why can bear almost any how.

Michael Dermansky

Yeah. That’s, uh, um, that’s a pretty powerful little book. He just talked about this thing, but it’s extremely powerful. So let’s go to, well, I actually want to go back to what you said about Chicago. So what made this clinic you worked in Chicago so great.

Dave

Yeah, amazing. Here’s a thing I didn’t realize. I lucked out to the most supportive job around, I think. We are one of them at least. While my peers were going off and being sort of only moderately supported or not so great support in these days, you still hear that story of people getting smashed without the support. I lucked into a job that had weekly one-to-one supervision. We met up weekly for group supervision where we did case studies.

There were people that could jump into your sessions. Kath and I, I think we probably did it more than other people, but Kath and I would jump in the bosses sessions and we could watch, there were opportunities to learn from others. It was just a really supportive environment. Also in that time, so this is more than 20 years ago, there wasn’t a lot of PD here. So the US had all the latest PD, which was really cool. So that was something that I don’t think a lot of my peers were lucky enough to have. And so does that put me out of touch? Well, funnily enough, then we came back and we had a brief stint where we helped set up a practice for six months and then we moved back to Sydney where my family was and set up Moveabout. And so Cathy had gone back to finish her OT degree at that stage and I was focused in the clinic. And so I’m all on my own and I’m pretty social, I’m pretty confident, but I didn’t realize a lot of my confidence was knowing that I had the support of a team around me. And so I was confident in sessions, but then I’d have that one session and, and I can remember one distinct session. I remember just everything went wrong. You know, you know, those sessions where you just, and then you try harder and harder and things just go wrong and wrong. I don’t know. Is that the right phrase? But so we, we survived, no one died and child went out and they came back and it was fine. But I remember after that session just being exhausted and I’m all on my own. I remember had this tiny, tiny little office because we had 55 square meters. We maximized the therapy space and we just had this little two and a half by two and a half office to do our paperwork. And I remember just sitting at my desk, staring through the doorway at the room that I hadn’t packed up yet. I looked at the floor with water spilt from the bubble tub cool down that didn’t quite work the way I wanted it to and just sort of looking at this going, what am I doing? Like I want my team back. Like I, I was, you know, I can feel myself getting sort of like, I don’t know, shivers or whatever it was that this, have I made the wrong choice here? And I literally, I had my 10 minutes before the next session came. So it was, by the time I’d had these thought processes, there was like three minutes for the next session. I had to pack up the room and set up a room. I had to just get on with it. But I remember writing down call Beth. She was my old boss from Chicago. And so I wrote, call Beth on a sticky note. And I went and had my next two sessions and they were fine. Did my 10 o’clock, did my 11 o’clock, got to lunchtime. 12 o’clock gave Beth a call, seven o’clock her time. She answered the phone to me and said, what’s up? And I started talking to her and I was like, I think I need your help. And she’s like, absolutely. Of course now I had to pay for that help. And I did, I made sure I paid her for support. I had an OT in Perth that I got a bit different support.

I also tapped into speech and psych because I had a multi-disc team around me that I was like, I, you know, I could just rely on other people for things back in those days. And now as on my own, that I got four supervision sessions every sort of four to six weeks that I paid for. And that was about $600 16, 17 years ago, which is more like $1,500 these days, I think. But it was worth it because it kept me in the game. It meant that I didn’t have to be the expert necessarily at everything. There could be things I didn’t know that I could say, Hey, great question. Let me ask someone. And I realized that’s the key. And that was what we brought in to move about. There’s there should be never a time that a therapist needs to make stuff up, fake it till they make it. They can, they need to, we say people trust the blue shirt, the move about shirt. Uh, so you can say, Hey, that’s a great question. Let me run it by the team. That’s a great question. Let me chat to my supervisor. Let me get Dave to come jump in a session and see what he thinks and families trust thaIf the therapist isn’t saying that they’re in control because they know that if something comes up, they don’t know, they’ll pull someone in, get a second eye, a set of eyes. And so the team members feel supported because they know they’ve got weekly one-to-one weekly group soup and people that can jump in if needed, which, you know, as they grow on, they don’t need that very often, but they know it’s there, which feels good. And the families feel supported too, because they know they have a whole team supporting them.

And so that’s support the people who support the kids is really our organizing principle for everything. And then the last year or two, we’ve really tried to extend that to the community as well, because we can’t do it all on our own. So we want to help others do it too.

Michael Dermansky

The common scenario where you’re a therapist, you know, I would tell you physio, whatever, uh, osteo as well, particularly if you’re a, if you’re like, you’re a duck in the box as well is like, you know, it’s made the patient in the room and I’m that’s why I see those four walls every day. And I don’t know what’s outside of it. That support structure that you, so you locked down on with Chicago and you were able to bring back or if you, you didn’t have that support there, it’s like, I feel like I’ve lost my arms and legs. It’s not, it’s not there. How, how important is having that ability to talk to somebody as well. And, um, interestingly enough, when you felt it wasn’t there, you took the initiative to pay for someone else for that support where you didn’t see it as a, oh, I can’t afford this. It’s a suspense. This is what I need to do to be able to, to be, to, to do my service properly. It’s a very interesting philosophy and quite a, um, quite a thought provoking one as well. That’s pretty good stuff, Dave.

Dave

Yeah, I mean, it is, but it’s funny, you know, you’re poor for four years, right? Or if you finish at an undergrad, you do your whole uni and you’re very, very poor. And then you get into a workplace and people are like, well, you know, I shouldn’t have to pay for my own stuff. My boss should have to pay for it. And that’s I mean, I want to encourage young professionals to find a place that has a PD allowance. But I also want people to take responsibility for their own learning. Like we’re lifelong learners. And that’s when you feel energized. You feel energized. You need to get to competent before you can love what you do. And then you move on to confident. But absolutely, investing yourself is the best way to speed up that learning curve, to make sure that you can feel safe and stay in it. Absolutely, yeah, 100%.

Michael Dermansky

Well, it’s amazing. I mean, you know what you said? I mean, I remember when I was, you know, when I was a student, even after finished, I couldn’t get enough of. Who could I have? Could I speak to what I was going to learn? What else can I see? You know, just it’s very rare that you can’t talk to someone and say, you know, what, do you mind if I pick your brains for half an hour or an hour, they won’t be happy to tell you what they do and what, and how they do it or something about their lives.

They’re excited about what they’ve been able to do with their lives. And, you know, you learn more and more about your craft. I mean, you’ve chosen a job to do something. You need to learn the skills, you know, in vet. It’s, it’s, it’s a great thing to invest in yourself and your craft to, to learn more, see things from a different perspective. I mean, when you’ve got, uh, you know, four different people tutoring you, uh, you know, the person from Perth, Chicago, and when you saw a different view of the world, how much more depth did it give you in decision-making afterwards too?

Dave

What it does, it really helps. And it actually, I was, I didn’t realize how much it was going to help with managing people and, and understeady people that you work with. But I, you know, I draw a lot on the DIR floor time model. So that’s developmental individual difference relationship based model of practice. It is, was originally designed for kids with autism and it is, you know, essentially a transdiss model where you’re drawing on each other and learning from each other. And, I learned in Chicago that I needed at least enough support from a speech therapist to know how many words to use so that I’m not overwhelming the kid. Or, you know, if I could, if I could know a little bit of here and there, I could really do a better job of pitching my language so that I could do my OT work, same with psychology. If I knew how to relate to the kid, if I knew how to tune into emotions, if I knew how to reflect, if I knew how to read things better, I could deal with people better. And here’s the thing, people don’t realize with kids, they come with parents. And so it’s not just even understanding the kid, it’s understanding the parent and they’re really the key to the success of the child. The child’s with you once a week. And we’re not mechanics, they don’t bring their kids, they don’t drop them off to fix them. We’re here to support the people who support the kids. If we can help the parent be better able at supporting that child in everyday life that child’s gonna be far better off than if we just try and do it ourselves. I sometimes say, it’s a bit crude in the way I say it, but if you can 2X the parent, you can 10X the kid.

Michael Dermansky

Wow. Okay. So that’s a very different view. I’m not ideal, mostly the adults. So I don’t see that world as well, but interest, that’s, that’s a very interesting perspective. So, I mean, let’s talk about these clinics in New South Wales. You’ve got three clinics in New South Wales.

Dave

Yeah, so we’ve got Bella Vista is the original one in Sydney in the Hills area. And then Central Coast in Berkeley, we, we set that up about seven or eight years ago. We took over a practice that existed there sensibility, which was run by an amazing therapist, Coralie Clifford. Um, and she reached out to us and basically said, I’m retiring. I want someone with similar values to take over. And we went and had a look and actually, funny, funny story. We were driving into meet with her and her husband and we’re driving into, I think, Glenning Valley and as we’re heading to our house, there’s like kids with a lemonade stall and a lady hosing a garden waving to us and we’re like, this is a setup. But we came and we had a look at the clinic and we fell in love with the Central Coast so we moved here ourselves. And that was our second clinic. Last year we opened our third clinic and that’s a partnership with one of our team members. So that’s our first ownership pathways where we’re 50-50 with Kim Berry, who is one of my favorite humans and amazing therapist who worked with us for six years in Sydney and then deserted us and went to Newcastle. I didn’t take it too personally. She did it for family reasons. And then when we had the central coast practice, she came back, led that team, and then we’ve set this up together. So we’ve had about 11 or 12 years together out of the last 16. She’s awesome.

Michael Dermansky

Wow. So what’s the philosophy you take to your clinic now? What’s the overarching direction philosophy that you take?

Dave

Well, our organizing principle is we support the people who support the kids. So that, that needs to be in our decisions and, and every decision we make and therapists know they can make decisions. Therapists know that they can talk to admin and refund a session. Say, say a parent, we’ve had situations where 10 minutes into the session, the kid has a seizure and that doesn’t happen all the time, but they know they don’t have to ask, they just say, just, just refund it. Don’t worry about it. We’re about supporting people. We’re not about making money and that means a lot to families as well. So that’s the organizing principle for every decision we make. And then our values, like we really, really live our values. And we came up with our values about four years ago at the team retreat, the team came up with the wording of them. And actually I was so exhausted from setting up our team retreat that I sort of stepped out of the room into the sunlight just to catch a breath and, and just listen. And then I would come back in and add to each value while we did this exercise. And the values perfectly represented what I felt myself. And I think that’s because we had the values, they existed. We just hadn’t articulated them in words. And so those words are, we’re in it to make a difference. We’re always learning. We’re connection driven and we’re playful. And we live and breathe those. Last year at the retreat, we had a group called Dalmari who I’d recommend to everyone. They’re an Aboriginal artwork group. And these guys come and guide you through creating an Aboriginal artwork. So we created these big massive canvases, one for each clinic, where the whole team connected around creating those. And each of them had a theme based on each of our values. But that’s how we live. So we live and breathe our values, which are, and I guess at the heart of it, it’s connection. You know, we’re a connected team. We have each other’s back. We support the people who support the kids.

Michael Dermansky

Fantastic. also taking a bigger education, uh, the space in pediatric OT. Why have you decided to go down the direction and, uh, how does, how does that fit into your business or what does that look like?

Dave

The answer is probably ADHD, Michael. Well, no, I joke, but I do have a lot of ideas and we run a great business and we’ve got great leadership that I have had the freedom to be able to follow through on some of those ideas. So again, I mentioned that a year or two ago, we said, now we need to support the people who support the kids in our community. And so that’s particularly OTs but then extending to other allied health as well. Probably selfish reasons at first, it was like a lot of people talk about how hard it is to recruit. You know, I felt that a year and a bit ago. I don’t feel it so much now. We’re currently on a streak of. 12 hires as of tomorrow, without placing a job ad, I just was overseek a year ago and I just said, we’re going to get the word out and let people know that we’re a great place to work. But then that shifted, actually, because we started to shift it instead of going, we’re gonna be the best place to work. It was just, you know what, we can’t do this on our own. We just need to help people. Originally I was like, I’m gonna be the best and everyone’s gonna work for us. And then I realized they weren’t. Other places were burning them out and driving them out of Peds, driving them out of the profession sometimes. And so it was like, oh, I need to support people at other places because I want kids to have good OTs. I need these people to stay in the profession. So the way we decided to do it was to create a move about mentoring where we support therapists who aren’t supported their current workplaces for as little as $87 plus GST. Move that immersion where people can come spend a week with us and we take them through the client journey with five one-on-one sessions, get them into about 15 to 20 sessions, have a play with equipment and send them off with packages of templates and activities and a whole bunch of things as well, but I wanted to bring out some of the world’s best speakers. So last year we brought out Kim Barthel, who’s an OT expert in trauma. Julie Wilbarger, who’s really a world expert in sensory processing and particularly sensory defensiveness. And just, we did a lot of webinars, free and paid webinars, because I just wanted to be able to, a lot of free ones as well. We did a four session trauma, transforming trauma series heading into Kim Barthel coming. There was free and we had over 300 people sign up for that as well. So really, wanting to support people. And this year we’re looking to even enhance that a bit further. I’m doing a membership community, an online membership community with Sonja Beselic, who’s an amazing speech therapist. That’s called the Allied Health Sanctuary. That will commence in Feb. So we’re going to open the doors at the end of Jan, do a free webinar, and then we’re gonna move into that. That’s gonna have four sessions a month. I’ve just released a scorecard called, is your workplace working for you? Which is really about helping people, 18 questions, three minutes to complete. But once you’ve done that, you’re gonna get feedback around five key areas, vision and values, culture, career growth, work-life balance and finances. And it does a pretty good job of it. And it’s customized to your responses. It’s really cool. I’m very proud of it actually. One of the people we interviewed said, you know, I did this and I didn’t feel great in my job and I didn’t realize what it was.

And then I did this and I could see what the key things that I wasn’t getting. And, and so she, then she had the choice to either, you know, talk to her employer about fixing those things or look for an alternative. And it wasn’t that everything’s all bad and you need to come work for us. That’s, that’s not what we’re doing. It’s about actually being able to help you reflect on not just because people get really simplistic, right? They go, oh, the hours are burning out. It’s the KPIs and those things are things, but I think vision and values quite important. The connection you have with the team are quite important. It’s broader than that. Yeah, and I’m hoping this year to do a podcast as well. You’ve inspired me, Michael, that I think I’d like to do a podcast based on the book. That’s the other thing I did last year. Holy moly. I wrote a book called Challenging the Story, a Surprisingly Simple Approach to Supporting Children with Challenging Behaviors and that was a really cool experience. It was an international bestseller on Amazon, which is pretty cool. And so this year, the podcast and the course to go along with it. I think I just love having ideas and, but I am following through on them is the main thing.

Michael Dermansky 

Yeah. Well, it doesn’t sound like, I mean, it sounds like, I mean, 18 months, I get an idea of having, you know, I, I didn’t move about mentoring as well as a product line and, you know, where these, you know, you’re about four or five steps further into that too. And started off as an original idea of doing moving that mentoring as well. So let’s finish over the last thing today. You’re mostly non-clinical now. Is that right, David? So what is your typical life look like now? And, you know, especially, and we talk quite often, about the amount of learning that you still currently do.

Dave 

Yeah, well, there’s a lot of learning, a lot of learning. I still do a lot of learning in terms of therapy related learning, cause I just love learning. I also do a lot of business training, particularly around emotionally intelligent business and fostering adaptability and flexibility and things to be able to make sure that we’re at the cutting edge and it’s exciting to work where we work. My role still is along our organizing principle of supporting the people who support the kids. That’s primarily our leadership team and supervising and meeting with them and planning and strategizing how to support the rest of the team. It’s in developing training. It’s, it’s coaching in session coaching, you know, so I will go into the clinic and spend time with the therapist. I really have plans to do a lot more of that this year as well, because I love, I love being in the clinic, but I’m, I’m living my dream, which is to be able to go and play without having to write a treatment note. That’s my life aspiration. And then it’s developing trainings. It’s, it’s being able to develop trainings for our team. It’s coaching and mentoring and developing trainings for people outside of us, which, you know, from a business perspective, instead of saying we’re going to be the best way to work for us, actually this giving philosophy, philosophy is amazing. People then are attracted to that. People are attracted to. This is such a great place that we want to share that knowledge. And that’s no longer why I do it, but I know it works when you give freely, people wanna connect with you and wanna spend time with you. And I think we’re attracting amazing people because of that.

Michael Dermansky 

So, the idea of finding a way to track people has led to a very, very different path of what your life looks like now compared to say two years ago, is that right?

Dave 

Yeah, I think so. Absolutely. And it’s fun and exciting too. It’s great to see therapists grow. It’s great to see therapists within our own clinic grow. It’s been my, actually my favorite thing at the moment is mentoring young business owners, early business owners who are either sole traders or starting to bring on team members and just be able to support them to have that balance in their life, to feel good about what they do and to be able to support and nurture a team that stays with them for a long time. I think If there’s one hot tip in terms of finances, it’s if you can keep people, it’s a lot more cost effective than if you have to replace people. So it’s a win-win. Taking care of people is actually best for business.

Michael Dermansky 

Sounds like are you still going back to what you learned in Chicago? Um, you know, the best thing about that job was a degree of support and it still drives that philosophy that you do every day, no matter what product line you’re signing, trying to develop. That’s what I’m hearing.

Dave 

Yeah, absolutely. 100%.

Michael Dermansky 

Any final thoughts?

Dave 

You know, I think I’ve been looking at a couple of the score cards that are coming in from the issue workplace working for you and, and seeing that, um, I, I need to wait the vision and values part a little more heavily cause I’m seeing people score, you can score yes, no somewhat and somewhat to me is actually not good enough. So if you get, you know, one point for a somewhat and yet two points for a yes, if that makes sense in the balance of things, actually somewhat’s not good enough.

If someone’s scoring somewhat on are they aligned with vision and values, there’s something not quite right. And so you need to get in sync. It means that it’s not a complete no, but I know our team are really energized around our vision and our values. And I think that is the key above anything else, above the number of sessions you have above how you can interact with your, with your clients, coming down to making sure that you’re living true to your vision and values is really important and that you create a workplace where people can do that themselves. I think if there was any, I don’t know if you’re about to offer this, but I guess the other thing I would say is Moveabout’s really got some great social media and so I would encourage people to jump on Instagram. I’m a bit of a goose with some good education as well as being a goose on Instagram at DaveJerub underscore OT and moveabout.ot on Instagram are our two main platforms. And this year we’re really gonna add a lot more to YouTube and you can find us on Facebook and LinkedIn as well.

Michael Dermansky 

Yep. So I mean, a lot of social media platforms as well, but the philosophy starts with it too, with supporting support the people to support the kids as it sounds like it’s still, and they’ll watch media using that’s still the underlying theme of every single thing you start to do.

Dave 

Absolutely. That’s everything.

Michael Dermansky 

and spend a lot of time learning so you can continue to live that philosophy as well.

Dave 

That’s why I get up once a month at 6.30 to hang out with you for half an hour, mate.

Michael Dermansky

So we give ourselves accountable and do all the things that we say we’re going to do. Very good. Well, thank you very much for your time, Dave. That was a great conversation piece. And I mean that, that strong, strong theme of support, people to support, support the kids or, you know, having that, circle of support around you. If you don’t have it with you, find it. It’s just, it’s, um, gold into your development and growth. Thank you very much for your time.

Dave

Thank you, Michael.